In a wide-ranging discussion, Margaret Papandreou, 87, was by turns funny, frank and self-deprecating. She discusses a cherished childhood memory that taught her the difference between right and wrong, the time she fell on her backside at a state dinner and the fond memories she still has of Andreas.
And, finally, she lets readers in on whether her son George takes her advice.
Athens News: What are the valuable life lessons you have learnt over the years in the public eye?
Margaret Papandreou: One important one is that the use of humour in public discourse is dangerous. It is seldom understood or it is interpreted incorrectly by the media for political purposes.
On my first trip back to my small home town of Elmhurst, Illinois, near Chicago after we won elections in 1981, I got a call from a journalist with the Chicago Tribune. He asked for an interview with me because it was a novelty for an American woman to be the “first lady of Greece,” as they called me in the States. His first question was, “When you were a little girl running over the plains of Illinois, did you ever dream you would be the wife of the prime minister of Greece?”
I thought it was a ridiculous question. When I was a little girl, I had barely ever heard about Greece, let alone speculate on becoming a wife. In America in those days - unfortunately even now - its citizens gave small attention to international affairs.
I replied, ‘No, I did not dream I would be the wife of the prime minister of Greece. I dreamt... I would be the prime minister of Greece.’ Perhaps this was an indication of a fledgling feminist, but in my mind it was humour. It was printed as a subtitle on the published interview. The Greek newspapers picked it up and I was called power-hungry, egotistic, overly ambitious.
I love humour. It is an outlet to overly serious thinking, is a blow to pomposity and produces laughter. Recently I learned that according to health research laughing extends your life. Now I laugh for two to three minutes when I awake in the morning to add years to my life.
More seriously, other lessons are to be patient, to be persistent in what you believe in, to not pay attention to lies that are written about you and to remain close to the people.
You are known as someone who speaks her mind. Have you ever said things or done things you regretted?
I speak my mind on political issues, or on ideological issues, and not on personal issues. It is when I have said something to a person I love - speaking perhaps honestly - and I hurt her or him, that I regret that action. However, people should speak out on public matters. In fact, it is an obligation in a democratic society.
The rules change for members of government. They have this freedom within government bodies but are obliged to back a policy line publicly, or to be silent. Within these circles, including the party, dissent is normal. But when a member announces his own opinion openly, through the media, that creates confusion. Democratic functioning requires a great deal of self-discipline, a characteristic lacking in the political world to a large degree.
A government, in order to be responsible, must develop a political line, announce it, and then proceed to find the means to materialise that line, to develop it in practice.
We are going through difficult times, and I understand the anguish because I have experienced poverty in the past, but to respond only by bellyaching, bellowing and backbiting doesn’t help the situation.
Citizens must participate in the solution, not feel that they are just victims and helpless. Organising for a demonstration is one action, but in today’s world where the government has no financial resources to respond positively, such a protest does not bear fruit. The public must find ways of contributing to the solution, of finding means for creating national income, of using the brain power that Greeks are known to have, for productive progress.
We are a rich country in terms of nature and human resources. Put the two together for creating jobs. The habit of sitting on one’s butt and waiting for the government to become a charitable organisation is not feasible. Nor does it challenge the creative capacities of our citizens. When Greeks go abroad they are highly productive and successful.
That suggests that the system works better elsewhere. This government is trying to reform the system and make it citizen-friendly and business-friendly, thus opening the way for active participation of the people. As my son says, ‘this is an opportunity. Take advantage of it.’
How do you see the results of the recent local government elections?
I responded by voting, of course. But you are talking about the results. First I want to say that I like the Kallikratis scheme [on reorganising public administration] and believe this new structure will be very useful and positive for green development and will spur the creative potential that exists within our population.
What was spectacular about the voting was its clear evidence of wisdom. Despite the harsh measures that had to be taken by the government because of the international crisis and the economic burden passed on by the prior administration, citizens managed to express their anguish and concern while giving at the same time a vote of confidence to the present government to continue with its reforms and efforts to reduce the national debt.
Would you like to comment on the IMF memorandum?
No one liked it. Did anyone have a viable alternative to avoid bankruptcy? No one. There was no other road. Ireland is finding out about this now, as will other debt-ridden nations.
George’s early diplomatic marathon was critical for a solution, even a difficult one. Critical for all of Europe. Yes, it is a strong, distasteful medicine. But Greeks know how to fight whatever obstacles appear in their lives, be it war, dictatorship, cultural intervention or financial brutality.
I have great faith that over the long run we will succeed.
You have been most associated with human rights and women’s rights. Are you still involved?
I will always be involved in matters of justice. This sense of fairness came quite early in my life. I had an experience at the age of 5 in kindergarten that I never forgot and which placed me on the path of seeking justice as the core of my life‘s goals.
We were all sitting on the floor listening to our pals recite a poem. One of the boys out of nervousness wet his pants while trying to recite.
Miss Peggy, our teacher, reprimanded him and put him on a chair facing the wall, tying his hands behind his back. When she returned to the circle, I stood up and said, ‘You shouldn’t do that.’ She responded by saying, ‘Sit down, Margarita.’ Still standing, I repeated myself, saying, ‘He didn’t mean to do that - it was an accident.’ Soon I found myself facing the wall next to the boy with my hands tied behind my back.
When I went home that day, I made an announcement to my parents. ‘I am never going back to kindergarten,’ I declared. They listened to my story, told me that it was correct what I did, but that sometimes teachers make mistakes etc - and that I should return. They allowed me a couple of days of absence and then one morning my father said, ‘I am taking you to school today.’
He literally dragged me to the car. When we reached the schoolyard, he picked me out of the car and started carrying a struggling and screaming little girl towards the school door. We reached the door, my Dad hesitated, and then he put me down, patted me on the head tenderly, then took me by the hand and said, ‘You were right, Margarita. Let’s go home.’
Somewhat later, I understood the importance of childhood experience and training and how values are formed. What my father did encouraged me to promote just solutions to problems.
In practice, as an adult, I have worked for women’s rights and the right to peace. In 1976 a group of us women founded a grassroot women’s organisation called the Women’s Union of Greece - EGE, working for women’s rights. In 1987 we launched the Centre of Research and Action on Peace (KEDE), working to establish a culture of peace. I am now honorary president. We are searching for new members, and they needn’t be Greek to join. Anyone interested can check with our website www.kede.org.
As former first lady, is there anything you would have done differently?
I was an activist first lady, and I believe I contributed to the advancement of women. I would have wished to be more active. At that time we were already witnessing the ecological devastation through the globalisation of capitalism and were in need of a worldwide eco-socialist resistance.
This required a strong movement against the destruction of nature and of human life. If we had started then, we would now be further along on George’s road of sustainable development.
I wish I could have done more to strengthen democracy. For a democratic country to function, the citizens need to feel a sense of togetherness. This is especially true in a national crisis. The common good must be first - ahead of individual interest. We must show compassion for those who suffer most and solidarity in the struggle.
Some of this may sound naive and utopian. I am neither of these. I am very practical. But I do believe one should have a vision as a guide to good governance and then take steps that lead towards that vision. That method will assure a future better life, but also an improvement in real everyday life.
Do you talk politics with your son? Does he ask for your advice?
Politics is in my blood. When I was 12 my grandfather asked me to help him become a member of the Illinois State Legislature. He was running on the socialist ticket. He introduced me to campaigning and it was when I heard him speak and listened to the discussion that followed, I got snared.
I became active in school politics and then in the Labor Party of Minnesota when I was a student at the university. And, by the way, the first evening I met and talked with Andreas, it was mostly about politics. I was virtually hypnotised by him and the discussion.
So it is quite natural that I would talk to George about politics. I can’t say he asks for my advice. I give it readily. I think he feels that my long experience is invaluable.
Also, I have kept close to the people in the countryside, the base so to speak, so I am able to give him a description of what is going on at that level. Generally, he already knows.
As a mother, how do you feel when you hear people criticising your son, or any member of your family?
I have had to become impervious to criticism. So many lies, so much innuendo, so many false stories are promulgated by the mass media that if I were to get concerned I would be spending full days trying to correct the distortions. This is where one’s conception of one’s self and what I know about the members of the family becomes important.
In other words, if I know the lies are incorrect, if I know the stories are false, and that I am right, if I know that my children are behaving correctly then I can carry on, even singing. Time will prove that I am right.
Journalists and editors or owners of the communication mechanism are supposed to function under the rules of ethical journalism. Slander of a person is a libel and can be challenged in court. But one cannot run constantly to ask for justice. Rules must be followed as a matter of conscience and by demand of the public. A free press is a pillar of democracy, but such freedoms have their own canons even if they are to be self-imposed.
What’s the biggest difference from being the wife of a prime minister and the mother of a prime minister?
Age! Well, not only that. In the case of the wife, I was more involved in politics. Also, I was more in the public eye - which can be difficult for a free-spirited, non-conventional creature. As a mother, I am an observer - applauding when the ‘child’ does well, scolding when mistakes are made.
I must say that I am very proud of George. He has kept the values he grew up with - honesty, respect, generosity, commitment to a goal that often requires sacrifice of personal desires, empathy for the oppressed, and humility.
George is one politician who has not been affected by power. He has not gotten on a white horse; he has not become arrogant. When George took over as prime minister, the country at large had plunged into a deep, deep hole, like those collapses that occur in mines, and he and his colleagues were given the job to pull the country out. When you have a hole that has sunken deep into the earth and there are live people at the bottom, you have to use all of your creative capabilities and find the techniques to pull them up.
This often requires the assistance of outside forces and technology. This is what he has been doing, and I believe in the process he has become a true leader. If the country shows patience and gives him backing, he will manage, and we will be a much better country for the effort.
What are some light-hearted moments you recall about your late ex-husband, Andreas Papandreou, when he was prime minister?
We had many light-hearted moments. Andreas was fun-loving, so generally these moments were within the family or with a group of friends - eating, laughing, dancing. I can’t remember specific instances. I remember things that happened that were funny and became family anecdotes, like the time one of our ambassadors fell asleep at an official lunch in a foreign country; or the time in Finland when after a dinner in honour of Andreas, we all got up to leave, and the Finnish prime minister pulled the chair out from under me as I got up, and I fell to the floor; or the time I gave my condolences to a known actor at a reception on the death of his wife, only to find out later that his wife had died 10 years earlier.
Then there was the time on my first visit to Greece a long time ago, shortly after we were married, when I realised that everyone asked me if I spoke Greek, and the only word I knew was όχι, or no, so I asked Andreas to give me a phrase to at least put variety in my answer. He told me to say poli ligo, meaning very little.
The first chance I had to use it was on a trip to Patra with my father-in-law, George Papandreou, when we visited his political office, and I was introduced to about 20 ‘captains’, as the chief representatives of the villages of Achaia. I heard one of them ask me if I spoke Greek. With great pride, I said loudly poli ligo. There was absolute silence in the room. My father-in-law put his hand on my shoulder and said, “Margarita, he asked if you like Greece.” So my first utterance and performance in a political setting was a bust.
What are some of the things people don’t know about your son, the prime minister?
Frankly, I don’t know what they don’t know. He has been in public life for so long and has had wide exposure, plus the fact that he has travelled much in the country to see at first hand the people and the needs they have. People do know him.
He is not the typical politician. He is more of a crusader. He wants a better life for all, with special concern for the underdog. He has a credible, realistic and robust vision of what it means to be human. He has a notion of pedagogy that takes matters of individual autonomy and social empowerment seriously. Any policy based on fairness should tackle undeserved wealth. A fair distribution of wealth is consistent with his dream.
He wants schools to be a space for imagination, creativity and the learning of critical and logical thinking. Perhaps, these cannot be achieved in a period of crisis, although George thinks this situation is an opportunity. The important thing is to have put the country on the right path.
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